Autor Thema: 4E und die Folgen für Third-Party-Publisher  (Gelesen 5967 mal)

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Taysal

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4E und die Folgen für Third-Party-Publisher
« Antwort #15 am: 26. Oktober 2007, 03:19:27 »
Aha, Danke für die Antwort. Diese Feinheit ist mir entgangen. Wieder was schlauer. :)

Berandor

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« Antwort #16 am: 26. Oktober 2007, 08:47:32 »
Zitat von: "Wormys_Queue"
Es gibt da einen feinen Unterschied zwischen der d20-Lizenz und der OGL (Open Gaming License). Ersteres kann WotC jederzeit einkassieren, an der OGL lässt sich aber nicht mehr rütteln. Unter anderem deswegen bewirbt Paizo seine Produkte auch nicht mehr als d20-Produkte, wiewohl der von Erik Mona mal genannte Hauptgrund für diese Entscheidung wohl der war, dass (zumindest in den USA) d20 als Label wohl keinen allzuguten  Ruf mehr geniesst und eher als verkaufsschädigend gilt. Was wohl damit zu tun hat, dass die Händler bei der Umstellung auf 3.5 plötzlich auf einer ganzen Menge d20-Materialien sitzen blieben.

Und mit dem Rotz, den die d20-Schwemme brachte,
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Deus Figendi

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« Antwort #17 am: 26. Oktober 2007, 11:44:49 »
Zitat von: "Berandor"
Und mit dem Rotz, den die d20-Schwemme brachte,
Naja, das liegt doch in der Natur der Sache, D20 (das Logo, die Lizenz...) steht für Kompatibilität, nicht für Qualität.
Dass da immer auch Produkte bei sind, auf die man nicht so steht ist doch klar...
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Berandor

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4E und die Folgen für Third-Party-Publisher
« Antwort #18 am: 26. Oktober 2007, 12:21:56 »
Ja, aber das hat dem Logo auch geschadet.
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Wormys_Queue

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4E und die Folgen für Third-Party-Publisher
« Antwort #19 am: 26. Oktober 2007, 19:35:28 »
Zitat von: "Deus Figendi"
 D20 (das Logo, die Lizenz...) steht für Kompatibilität, nicht für Qualität.


Stimmt theoretisch nicht ganz. Wenn man die d20-Lizenz durchliest, stellt man fest, dass WotC die Vergabe der Lizenz unter dem Vorbehalt erteilt hat, dass das publizierte Material vorher eine Qualitätskontrollte vonseiten der Wizards erfolgreich durchlaufen haben muss.

Naja, grau ist alle Theorie. Ich denke, der Hauptvorteil der OGL liegt darin, dass man sich an keine Vorgaben halten muss. Man kann sich nehmne, was man mag und den Rest einfach ignorieren oder nach eigenem Gusto abändern. Dass man dafür auf ein paar Copyright-Monster verzichten muss, ist verschmerzbar.

Und man kann sich bei anderen OGL-Publishern bedienen. Paizo hat im Pathfinder 1 unter anderem auf den Thaumaturgen aus Green Ronins "Book of Fiends" und den Bunyip aus dem "Tome of Horrors"(Necromancer Games) zurückgegriffen. Im Pathfinder 2 werden Templates aus dem Advanced Bestiary (ebenfalls Green Ronin) verwendet.

Auf diese Quellen musste Paizo zu Zeiten der Printausgaben der Magazine innerhalb der d20-Lizenz verzichten, was etwas merkwürdig anmutet, wenn man weiß, dass Erik Mona am Book of Fiends mitgearbeitet hat. Aber damals war wohl noch WotC vor.
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Zanan

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4E und die Folgen für Third-Party-Publisher
« Antwort #20 am: 05. November 2007, 11:37:49 »
Ein wenig von Lisa Stevens (Paizo) und die 4E bzw. ihre eigenen Pläne:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/rpgSuperstar/general/chatWithLisaStevens

Ich hab das mal jetzt nicht alles Fett oder Kursiv gemacht  :wink:

Chat with Paizo CEO Lisa Stevens, November 1st, 5pm PST
This was a much more orderly chat than the Tuesday Pathfinder ones. "The chat room is chaotically aligned," says Eltanin. ;) Here's what I got, I'll try to group them by topic.

Ask a Shoanti Why did you guys start Paizo?
Vic and I took a year off from work after I left WotC and we thought about retirement believe it or not. However, we got bored and decided we wanted to work again. But it had to a) be something we loved and b) feel like a family. When the opportunity came along for us to start Paizo, it combined my love of D&D with my love of Star Wars. And we built a company where it is like an extended family. Basically, we do this because we love doing this.

farewell2kings How's Pathfinder doing for Paizo?
Pathfinder is doing great. I am really happy with the products and the response from y'all.

Yasha Has the customer response to Pathfinder thus far met/exceeded expectations?
Exceeded my expectations. If the support for Pathfinder stays where it is or even grows a bit, Paizo will be in great shape for a long time to come.

RogerC Pathfinder seems distinctly...'edgier' than what was in Dungeon. Just how edgy might Paizo get? Is an R-rated adventure out of the question?
It is probably edgier since we don't have to get WotC's approval. You would be suprised what being a publically traded company does to your edginess. :) That said, we don't make our adventures edgy just to be edgy. But if the storyline requires us to go to the edge, then we won't hesitate. So, depending on how you rate stuff, R-rated isn't out of the question, though it isn't a goal either.

Pendragon Translations for Pathfinder?
You are going to have to ask Erik that one next week. I left all the translation business in his capable hands. :) Tell him I passed the buck. :)

farewell2kings Is the new contest to find four finalists for a GameMastery module really a good way to find a writer whom you'll entrust such a large chunk of product?
Good question f2k. I guess we'll find out. :) I figure that we might as well try a number of things and see what works. And hopefully we can have some fun along the way.
At least I think it'll create some buzz and interest in the product line, and that's good.
Buzz is always a good thing. I am hoping we can draw some more folks to paizo.com and help build the community. Please, spread the word. The more the better. And that will also increase the chance that we will have some really good contestants, which should make it even more fun! I wish you guys could read the judges' posts in the private room of judgement. I spent an hour doing so last night and it was entertaining and education. Perhaps we can find a way to deliver those posts in the future.

Roger C What's the worse thing a freelance writer can do? (Or artist, cartographer, etc.)
Miss their deadlines.

Lilith Best possible outcome you're hoping from the results of the RPG Superstar contest?
Best possible outcome for RPG Superstar is that we discover the next Keith Baker, Nick Logue, Richard Pett, James Jacobs, Erik Mona, Wolf Baur, etc. If we end up with somebody who gains some cachet and can make products regularly for us that people want to buy, then we will have been successful.

Sebastian Will adventures continue to be the core of Paizo's business, or will we start seeing more sourcebooks ala the Pathfinder sourcebooks?
We will experiment with the mix as we move forward. Adventures are a great medium for us to build a new world through. And we knew how to do them well from Dungeon. But I expect that we will dip our hands into sourcebooks more often in the future and maybe even, gasp, rules books. :) BTW, don't read too much into the rules books quote above. It could be something as simple as spells or a class book or something like that. I am not inferring that we are planning to do a whole rules set. Just explore more of the types of stuff we used to do in Dragon.

farewell2kings Rulebooks for your own in house designed RPG?
I doubt that we will ever produce an in-house designed RPG. We love playing Dungeons and Dragons here at Paizo and really don't want to not be producing products for it. So I don't think you will find much support for doing our own ruleset around here. D&D has been good enough for the past 30 years for us.

Zaister Do you think you can sustain the company on material that mostly appeals only to DMs instead of players, like Dragon Magazine did?
We can most definetly support Paizo on the types of products we are making now, which almost all appeal to DMs. My big worry is a split of the audience with 4e that makes it hard to succeed in either direction. Also, I expect we will try our hand at some products aimed at players in the future.

farewell2kings How are spirits at Paizo in the face of tough decisions ahead?
*puts on her +5 armor of question avoidance* :)
Eltanin Have you made any progress on the difficult decsion re: 4e and Paizo's approach? How do you even go about making such a thorny choice?
We actually talk about this every day. But, obviously, we still have no clue and probably won't until sometime early next year. The bottom line is that we will do the thing that a) allows Paizo to continue to make the products that we all love and b) gives Paizo the best chance to be financially successful. Right now, we don't have all the data we need to make that choice.

David J I'm wondering, are you still planning on producing 3.5 material after 4e comes out, and if so, will it be strictly OGL?
*shakes her magic 8-ball* Answer hazy, ask again later. Much later. :)

RogerC Does Paizo have anything planned for World Wide Game Day this weekend?
Nothing planned for WWGD. I know, pretty lame. :)

Fatespinner We've already seen a connection with Necromancer Games in the past. Is Paizo planning to make any other collaborative efforts in the future, perhaps with other companies?
We are always looking for partnerships with other companies that make sense for our business. For instance, our relationship with Steel Sqwire for the combat templates and flip mats, and also Open Mind Games for the Combat Pad. If we find other companies that fit our business model like that, then I am sure we will for some sort of relationship with them! We usally look for companies that are doing stuff that we aren't, but makes sense for our customer base. For instance, I got a message today from the Australian company that makes those campaign coins you saw at GenCon. Hopefully we might be able to do something neat together.

RogerC Is there any sense of competition between the major publishers when it comes to freelance writers? Is there a sense that some companies "poach" the best ones?
You know, I haven't heard anything like that from our editors. For the most part, the gaming industry is an industry of friends. We all like the same thing and try to help each other out when we can. So I would say no.

David J Is it possible For 3rd party publishers to sell products through Paizo? If so, who do you contact for more information?
Yep, we have a coop program on paizo.com. A third party publisher contacts lisa@paizo.com and she will get you that info. Oh wait, that is me. :) If it is a PDF, you upload it and we pay you monthly. If it is a physical product, you send us some on consignment and we pay you monthly as they sell.

RogerC What's your perspective as a publisher on digital rights management and all that?
Well, obviously Paizo doesn't use DRM, so it should be pretty obvious that we prefer to trust our customers to not give away our livelihoods and only use what you've paid for. That said, we know that our products get pirated daily and we lose hundreds if not thousands of sales because of it.

Lilith Does the increase in preview material since Pathfinder & GameMastery Modules come about as a means to incent people to buy Paizo products as opposed to pirating them? Or just wanna show off groovy stuff?
Preview material is just a way to market our upcoming stuff to y'all. It gets folks jazzed for the next new thing, give you something to talk about besides 4e, and allows us to show you what is exciting. Like I just got the next iconic art in my mailbox today. James just gave me permission to tell you that the next iconic is a dwarven ranger. Picture next Friday. James promises!
I was just noticing that when Paizo had Dragon & Dungeon mags, we didn't get as many content previews as we do now. Was wondering if there was a WotC prevention of material release or whatnot.
We couldn't do as much previews with Dragon and Dungeon because everything had to get approved by WotC and that was just a big hassle.

Sebastian Do you think the rpg market is growing?
I actually know that the RPG market is shrinking. We are getting older and older and there isn't a lot of new kids coming in. I think they are tantalized by online and video games, and thus it is harder for us to get them to play RPGs...Ten years ago, you were disappointed selling 20,000 copies of an RPG product. Today, 5,000 is a success story.

Coreans Disciple Are those figures US or worldwide?
I only talk about worldwide. We live in an age where our business encompasses the world.

Sebastian Is there room for Paizo to expand without eating into someone else's market share?
There is room for Paizo to expand, but it probably is taking a bigger piece of the pie instead of making a bigger pie. However, if we can get folks who don't normally buy products to start buying them, then perhaps we can grow the overall pie. But that is really hard...

It is possible to succeed at the level of WotC/White Wolf these days and is that your goal (again)?
As for being as big as White Wolf or Wizards, I believe that we aren't that far off from being as big as White Wolf already. For us to be as big as WotC though, we would have to be the market leader. Which probably isn't going to happen as long as they have D&D.

Is WotC way out ahead of everyone else and then there is a clump of similarly sized companies? How is the market structured?
WotC is way out ahead of everybody in the industry, especially in the RPG biz. Then there are a few second tier companies. The third tier companies are always near going out of business. And then there are a bunch of hobby companies where making money isn't that important. RPG Second Tier: White Wolf, Paizo, Mongoose, perhaps Goodman and Green Ronin.

Lilith Is word of mouth still the best way to get products sold in the RPG market?
Yep, word of mouth is the BEST way to spread the Paizo love. :) Folks tend to take the opinion of fellow gamers much more seriously than all the hype that companies put out about their own products.

Do you still have contacts at White Wolf? Given that 4e is coming out and there is the possibility of an audience split, is there any chance of a WoD OGL and if so, would that be something that you think could work?
I do have contacts at White Wolf. Actually, somebody I am pretty close with just got hired there, but it hasn't been announced yet. :) However, I don't think that White Wolf wants to open up their WOD system and I don't think it would have a chance against the 800 pound gorilla even if they did.

Sebastian As a community, are we becoming too insular? It's a comment that's getting lobbed around lately, but it seems to mostly be trolls passing through and not real new people.Well, mostly I just want to know if we are being the kind of community that Lisa wants. And what we can do to help things grow - I worry that the anti-4e stuff is so strong as to scare off people.
Good question. I think you are right on both accounts. I do think that there is a little bit of cliquishness around the folks who have been here forever and a day. However, I think that the 4e announcement has polarized the D&D fanbase even more than in the past and we here at Paizo are sensing an axiety amongst our messageboards which leads to troll-like behavior. There are some folks here at Paizo which have quit reading lots of our own boards because of all the negativity. But I think that when something that is a big part of our lives is being threatened, the natural response is to lash out. It is hard to reign that in.

The Livewire What's the status on the Goblin Plushie is? (And Pathfinder minis?)
We have been talking with a friend of mine about doing Goblin toys. We are in the exploratory stage (ie. figuring how much these things cost). Trust me, when I know more, I'll let you know.As for miniatures, we are working with another company to produce these. I have seen some sculpts and they are really, really cool. I hope to be able to post more info soon. These are unpainted, metal minis.

Lilith What's the project you'd most like to work on?
I would have said in the past without thinking about it, the Greyhawk setting. But now with Pathfinder and our new world, I am not sure. So I would have to say that I want to most work on my top secret game that I have been working on for about 10 years. I would love to see it published some day. It is so Top Secret, that most folks here at Paizo don't even know what it is!

RogerC Can you share any war stories of really bad submissions with us?
You know, I haven't dealt with submissions in a long, long time. So I am afraid those types of war stories are not something you are going to get from me. :)

Sebastian What is your business background?
My business background is part school of hard knocks and part real degree. :) I got my BA in Biology back at St. Olaf College. That is where I met Jonathan Tweet and Mark Rein*Hagen and we started our first game company.

Did you pick up what you needed to know along the way or have you always been interested in the business and creative sides of the hobby?
We learned about business by just doing it, making mistakes, and learning from them. I got my MBA when I was at WotC back in 1999. You can check out my Profile on paizo.com to hear the whole sordid tale. :)

Lilith What's your biggest disappointment from a business perspective, either current, or in the past?
My biggest disappointment was not being as prepared as I should have been in the early days of Paizo. I didn't know jack about the magazine publishing business and we suffered because of it for a couple of years. I wish I had been more on the ball there.

RogerC Who would you cast to play yourself in your autobiographical movie?
I was asked this question by the Seattle Storm, the local WNBA team that Vic and I are fans of. They put my response to that and other questions up on the big screen during the game. Vic, what was my answer? Sarah Michelle Geller?
Vic Wertz I have no recollection!

Lilith Favorite DM moment, since I know you run a Shackled City campaign.
My favorite DM moment is going to be next Tuesday night, I hope. Let's just say that I have built up the campaign for this moment, with lots of plot threads coming together. If it works well, then everybody should leave with huge smiles on their faces. The players have been clammering for these resolutions for the whole campaign. Just say "Blue Duke" and they get all angry and such. :)

Pendragon How does one get into the RPG business and make it lucrative? As a writer or publisher?
Getting into the RPG biz is really hard. I would have suggested getting into Dragon or Dungeon, and you still might be able to do that through D&D Insider. Otherwise, RPG Superstar is what I have come up with to hopefully be an avenue.

Thanks once again Lisa & Vic for stopping by to chat, and thanks to everybody that showed up for being so well behaved!
Ust, usstan elgg dos ...

Cease this tirade, take a breath, and think. Then you will realize, enemy of the Dark Elves, that my concern for your well being has always been, at best, limited.

Deus Figendi

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4E und die Folgen für Third-Party-Publisher
« Antwort #21 am: 08. November 2007, 07:43:00 »
Zitat von: "Wormys_Queue"
Zitat von: "Deus Figendi"
 D20 (das Logo, die Lizenz...) steht für Kompatibilität, nicht für Qualität.
Stimmt theoretisch nicht ganz. Wenn man die d20-Lizenz durchliest, stellt man fest, dass WotC die Vergabe der Lizenz unter dem Vorbehalt erteilt hat, dass das publizierte Material vorher eine Qualitätskontrollte vonseiten der Wizards erfolgreich durchlaufen haben muss.
Oh... okay, das war mir nicht bekannt. Gemeint war aber ohnehin, dass es einfach auch Nieschenprodukte gibt, ich besitze z.B. "Tournaments, Fairs & Taverns" (d20-Lizenz) was sicher nicht jeden interessiert... aber durch OGL & Co einfach ermöglicht wurde.
Zitat
Und man kann sich bei anderen OGL-Publishern bedienen. Paizo hat im Pathfinder 1 unter anderem auf den Thaumaturgen aus Green Ronins "Book of Fiends" und den Bunyip aus dem "Tome of Horrors"(Necromancer Games) zurückgegriffen. Im Pathfinder 2 werden Templates aus dem Advanced Bestiary (ebenfalls Green Ronin) verwendet.
Das ergibt sich wohl daraus, dass die OGL vorschreibt, dass man wenn man sich aus OGL-Produkten bedient mindestens 5% (glaube ich) wieder unter die OGL stellen muss. So entsteht ein ständig wachsender Pool an Material, zumal die meisten Publisher (soweit ich das beobachten konnte) vor allem ihren Crunch unter die OGL stellten und ihre Fluff-Texte und Illustrationen eben nicht.
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Wormys_Queue

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4E und die Folgen für Third-Party-Publisher
« Antwort #22 am: 08. November 2007, 08:29:32 »
Zitat von: "Deus Figendi"
So entsteht ein ständig wachsender Pool an Material, zumal die meisten Publisher (soweit ich das beobachten konnte) vor allem ihren Crunch unter die OGL stellten und ihre Fluff-Texte und Illustrationen eben nicht.


Was ja auch irgendwie Sinn macht. Solange alle den selben Crunch benutzen (können), ist eine gewisse Systemkompatibilität gewährleistet, die auf der Stelle abhanden käme, wenn sich jeder Publisher neue Regeln ausdenken müsste. Eine ganze Kampagnenwelt unter die OGL zu stellen wäre aber wohl zuviel verlangt.

Immerhin hat sich Scott Rouse eindeutig geäußert. Es wird eine OGL geben, die für alle Publisher frei benutzbar ist. Von einer d20-Lizenz sprach er in dem Zusammenhang nicht, ob man da jetzt aber unbedingt etwas hineinlesen muss, weiss ich nicht.

Bleibt nur die Frage, wie umfangreich die OGL sein wird und ob zum Beispiel Erweiterungen in PHB II ff eine Chance haben, ebenfalls übernommen zu werden, da Publisher mit eher traditionellem Ansatz nur ungerne auf Gnome verzichten werden, dafür aber mit z.B. Eladrin womöglicherweise nur wenig anfangen können.

Aber das wäre wahrscheinlich schon wieder mehr Großzügigkeit, als man fairerweise von WotC verlangen darf.
Think the rulebook has all the answers? Then let's see that rulebook run a campaign! - Mike Mearls
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Zechi

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4E und die Folgen für Third-Party-Publisher
« Antwort #23 am: 08. November 2007, 15:43:53 »
Neueste Infos:

Zitat
D&D Brand Manager Scott Rouse has confiirmed unequivocably that there will be no d20 System Trademark License for 4th edition.

There will be the OGL and Wizards D&D products period. No d20 STL (tiered or otherwise) to be even more clear.

Note that the Open Gaming License will still be around (which allows for third party products) - the d20 STL deals with the logo usage only. Scott adds that:

We are looking to incorporate some sort of compatibility language within the new version of the OGL. Something like "Compatible with the 4th Edition of the Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying game..."
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