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Autor Thema: 4E - OGL/SRD  (Gelesen 21851 mal)

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Darastin

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4E - OGL/SRD
« Antwort #15 am: 09. Januar 2008, 11:53:47 »
Ganz verhindern wohl nicht; alles was der OGL unterliegt kann von anderen verarbeitet werden. Gerade ein Alternativsystem ändert ja auch einiges an den bestehenden Regeln, so daß vom ursprünglichen PHB ohnehin nicht mehr so viel übrig bleibt.

Bis bald;
Darastin
Darastins Grundregeln des Rollenspiels:
1. Sei kein Arschloch!  2. Spiele nicht mit Idioten!  3. Redet miteinander!

TheRaven

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« Antwort #16 am: 09. Januar 2008, 12:12:04 »
Mal ganz grundsätzlich ist es sowieso so, dass Spielregeln nicht urheberrechtlich geschützt werden können. Die Produkte, Bücher, Marken und Eigennamen hingegen schon. Man kann also SRD für jedes Rollenspiel machen, egal ob es dafür sowas wie eine OGL gibt oder nicht, solange du darin nur die Regeln wiedergibst. Und wer hat es erfunden? Genau.

Zitat von: "Ryan Dancey @ WotC"
Q: Can game rules be copyright?
A: In the United States, the rules of games cannot be copyright. The law may be different in other countries, but most countries are signatures to the Bern Convention on Copyrights, and under the terms of the BCC, the rules of games cannot be copyright. If you have questions about your ability to apply the copyright law to a game, consult your legal counsel.
Die Wissenschaft nötigt uns, den Glauben an einfache Kausalitäten aufzugeben.
- Friedrich

Arldwulf

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« Antwort #17 am: 09. Januar 2008, 12:17:15 »
Zitat von: "Rogan"
Zitat
Auch das 3.5er PHB ist nicht mit der SRD identisch.
Weiß ich doch  :) Meine Frage geht in eine andere Richtung: Monte Cook hat doch im Schutz der 3.X-OGL sein alternatives DnD-System veröffentlicht. Können die Wizards verhindern, dass Fans unter demselben Schutz die Regelbücher der 4. Edition "nachbauen" und verbreiten?


Kommt halt auch drauf an was denn alles "nachgebaut" werden soll. Wenn du z.B. dann (nicht freigegebene) Zauber, Klassen und Monster "nachbaust" und die Nachbauten zufällig identisch sind könnte dies Probleme geben. Solange aber alles auf deinem Mist wächst ist es auch deins.

Ganz allgemein wüsste ich aber auch nicht warum die Wizards sich daran stören sollten. Jeder der sich überhaupt mit PNP beschäftigt ist gut für sie, und jeder der was eigenes bastelt dass aber die 4E als Basis (oder auch Ziel) nimmt noch besser. Nehmen wir an sie bringen den Gnom nicht raus, aber du baust auf Basis der 3. Edition einen 4. Editionsgnom.

Wäre für die Wizards doch wunderbar.
1st Edition Nekromantentöter
--------
Ich hab nichts gegen niedrige Wahlbeteiligung. Irgendwann regier ich den Laden eben alleine. ;-)

Zechi

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4E - OGL/SRD
« Antwort #18 am: 09. Januar 2008, 14:29:40 »
Zitat von: "TheRaven"
Mal ganz grundsätzlich ist es sowieso so, dass Spielregeln nicht urheberrechtlich geschützt werden können. Die Produkte, Bücher, Marken und Eigennamen hingegen schon. Man kann also SRD für jedes Rollenspiel machen, egal ob es dafür sowas wie eine OGL gibt oder nicht, solange du darin nur die Regeln wiedergibst. Und wer hat es erfunden? Genau.

Zitat von: "Ryan Dancey @ WotC"
Q: Can game rules be copyright?
A: In the United States, the rules of games cannot be copyright. The law may be different in other countries, but most countries are signatures to the Bern Convention on Copyrights, and under the terms of the BCC, the rules of games cannot be copyright. If you have questions about your ability to apply the copyright law to a game, consult your legal counsel.


Das ist so nicht ganz richtig. Erstens sind natürlich Marken durch Markenrecht und nicht durch das Urheberrecht geschützt und andere (technische) Teile eines Spieles genießen evtl. Patentschutz.

Richtig ist, dass die Spielregeln an sich nicht urheberrechtlich geschützt werden können und Patentrechtlich auch sind. Allerdings kann man nicht einfach das PHB abschreiben, auch nicht den Regelteil, sondern man müsste die Spielregeln größtenteils in eigene Worte fassen.

OGL/SRD erlauben dagegen genau die Regelformulierungen zu verwenden die man im SRD und im Prinzip in den Regelbüchern findet.

Erfunden haben das natürlich auch nicht die Schweizer. Die Schweizer sind bloß als "neutral" bekannt und deswegen hat man sich im Falle völkerrechtlicher Verträge für "neutralen" Boden entschieden ;)
Planen ist alles, Pläne sind nichts.

Zanan

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« Antwort #19 am: 09. Januar 2008, 15:37:29 »
Gibt es irgendeine Info zum Thema der weiteren Existenz der SRD 3,5 bzw. OGL 3,5?
Ust, usstan elgg dos ...

Cease this tirade, take a breath, and think. Then you will realize, enemy of the Dark Elves, that my concern for your well being has always been, at best, limited.

TheRaven

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« Antwort #20 am: 09. Januar 2008, 15:47:38 »
@Zechi
Danke für das Offensichtliche aber vermutlich wolltest du dies ja nur für die anderen Leute präzisieren, nicht? ;)
Die Wissenschaft nötigt uns, den Glauben an einfache Kausalitäten aufzugeben.
- Friedrich

Arldwulf

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« Antwort #21 am: 09. Januar 2008, 16:59:12 »
Zitat von: "Clark Peterson discusses the plans Necromancer Games has for 4E."


Necromancer Games is IN, most likely in conjunction with Paizo. We will have products for GenCon or shortly thereafter.

    Products include:

    1. Tome of Horrors 4E: if WotC leaves monsters out of the offial rules, we will put them back in (cant say which ones cause we dont have the rules yet). Plus all the classics from the original Tome that you want in your 4E game will be back.

    2. Advanced Player's Guide: Designed in part by industry insider Ari Marmell, if they left classes and races out, we put them back in (Of course, we can't say if bards or druids or barbarians or gnomes or half-orc are or arent in 4th edition, but we know some stuff has been cut, and whatever is missing we will create for you with work by respected designer Ari Marmell.)

    3. Tegel Manor. A 4E version of the 1E Judges Guild classic.

    4. Winter's Tomb. A free, downloadable PDF along the lines of Wizard's Amulet, Necro's Ennie-winning introductory adventure, that will help jump start your 4E campaign.

    Winter's Tomb will be available at the first day 4E products can be released. Tome 4E should be available at GenCon with the Advanced Player's Guide. Tegel is also targeted for GenCon. Dates could slip pending WotC's delivery of the design kits.


Das finde ich in jedem Fall schonmal eine gute Nachricht.
1st Edition Nekromantentöter
--------
Ich hab nichts gegen niedrige Wahlbeteiligung. Irgendwann regier ich den Laden eben alleine. ;-)

Zechi

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4E - OGL/SRD
« Antwort #22 am: 09. Januar 2008, 22:40:25 »
Eine Ankündigung von Goodman Games:

Zitat
By now you've probably all seen the announcement on EN World: the 4th edition open game license is officially announced! Goodman Games is excited to be on board, and we will be part of 4E from the launch.

It will all start with Free RPG Day, the event that Goodman Games created and which Wizards of the Coast is heavily sponsoring this year. Look for another free DCC -- this time 4th edition -- on June 21 from participating stores.

After that it's going to be a very big Gen Con, for a number of reasons. First, it will be the fifth anniversary of our DCC Open Tournament, and we're making it special. The module is already being crafted and it's a real challenge. The bar for competition will rise as we add more tables and more players than ever before. And of course there will be the fun fact that most people will only have a few months of experience with the game, which will level the playing field.

The second big aspect of Gen Con will be our releases. Of course Dungeon Crawl Classics will be well represented in the first wave of 4E releases. We are having some fun with the concept, and the presentation of the DCC series will change a little. I like to joke that we're upgrading from a 1E look to a 2E look. The same basic concepts will be there, and the adventures will be designed by the same talented writers, but you will be immediately able to distinguish a 4E DCC from a 3E DCC. And I think you'll like the new look.

Aside from the DCC series, we'll have some other fun products, too, but those details will be forthcoming in the future. Many of you know that I often prefer to post about a product only when I have something to show off, so we'll be announcing more details as we get the great cover designs polished up.

For those of you worried about your favorite lines, fear not. Here's a quick run down on what's in the works, some in the near future, some further out...

Xcrawl: Brendan is hard at work on an Xcrawl boxed set. Yes, you heard it right. This new envisioning of the Xcrawl world will include some "non-book elements" and will realize the game's true potential as an action-packed RPG. Look for this late in the year.

Wicked Fantasy Factory: The WFF series has garnered a lot of fans and will move into 4E. More to come on that.

Other products: I'm usually not a big fan of licenses, but there's a great comic book I've been reading lately that would be a perfect fit into our line. This may or may not come about, depending on how the negotiations go, but it will be awesome if it comes together. Enough said on that. Those of you who read the catalogue poster in Castle Whiterock carefully may have noticed the blurb on Spellburn. Look for this game of "western fantasy" to be part of our 4E lineup. And of course the opportunity for a new edition always presents the opportunity for a lot of new products in general, which will be revealed in the time to come.


Kenne die Sachen von denen überhaupt nicht und kann daher nichts dazu sagen.

Sind eigentlich alle großen OGL-Anbieter der 3E jetzt auch mit der 4E dabei oder fehlt da eine Szene-Größe?

Gruß Zechi
Planen ist alles, Pläne sind nichts.

TheRaven

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« Antwort #23 am: 09. Januar 2008, 23:34:18 »
Also sicherlich Malhavoc Press. Die einzige Firma von welcher ich D&D D20 Sachen gekauft habe. Ansonsten gibt es da noch Alderac Entertainment Group, Fast Forward Entertainment, Fiery Dragon Productions und Troll Lord Games, die fehlen und noch so halbwegs bekannt sind.

Aber Monte macht ja jetzt World of Darkness Bücher. ;)
Die Wissenschaft nötigt uns, den Glauben an einfache Kausalitäten aufzugeben.
- Friedrich

Wormys_Queue

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« Antwort #24 am: 09. Januar 2008, 23:39:27 »
Zitat von: "Zanan"
Gibt es irgendeine Info zum Thema der weiteren Existenz der SRD 3,5 bzw. OGL 3,5?


aus den ENWorld News:
Zitat
In any case, material that’s open under the 3.5 OGL remains open, and there will be no language in the 4e OGL to restrict 3.0 or 3.5 products.
Think the rulebook has all the answers? Then let's see that rulebook run a campaign! - Mike Mearls
Wormy's Worlds

TheRaven

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« Antwort #25 am: 09. Januar 2008, 23:50:45 »
Zitat
In any case, material that’s open under the 3.5 OGL remains open, and there will be no language in the 4e OGL to restrict 3.0 or 3.5 products.

Das könnten sie gar nicht ändern auch wenn sie wollten. Alles was bereits veröffentlicht wurde hängt an einer bestimmten Version der OGL und selbst wenn sie eine neue OGL Version machen würden, so bleibt die alte Version und das damit verbundene Material gültig.
Zitat
9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.

Genau das ist der Kern der OGL. Wenn jemals etwas unter einer Version der OGL veröffentlicht wurde, dann ist es nie wieder möglich dieses Material einzuschränken. Ohne diese Zusicherung wäre OGL gar nicht möglich gewesen.
Die Wissenschaft nötigt uns, den Glauben an einfache Kausalitäten aufzugeben.
- Friedrich

Zechi

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4E - OGL/SRD
« Antwort #26 am: 11. Januar 2008, 17:52:25 »
Ziemlich langer aber sehr interessanter Text von den Mongoose-Leuten:

Zitat
Well, other publishers have started talking about their plans for 4e, and so it seems we should as well. . .

As you have no doubt heard, WotC have started revealing their plans for third party products to support D&D 4e, and the drive has begun to prepare titles for this part of the market - or not, as the case may be.

The question of whether to support the new game, as a publisher, is not as clear as it was in the old D20 days (indeed, Mongoose started as a 'D20 company', so our route was clear back in 2001). Mongoose's future, for the next decade at least, is going to be tied to RuneQuest and Traveller - we have invested a great deal into those lines, and they stand up well on their own. We also do not believe 4e will blat other games systems in the way D20 did for a while, so we are not too concerned about the impact on the market 4e will have against our product lines. Thus, our current games will continue in the way you are used to. No fears there.

The charge for the early adopters' route is $5,000. On the face of it, that is fair enough (and, indeed, there is some argument that WotC could have gone further in this direction, perhaps upping the charge to $15,000 or so, and extending the grace period for a year, two years, or longer). $5,000 is not an unsurmountable amount, but is it worth it?

Under a 'typical' licence agreement, with royalties (which this deal is not), that $5,000 might be matched against 10% wholesale royalties, which is effectively claimed off each book sold. If you assume a $24.95 book has a 60% discount in the trade, you get $9.98 for each book sold - thus you need to sell $50,000 worth of books, or 5,000 $24.95 books if this deal is to match a 10% licensed arrangement with, say, Warner Brothers or Sony. Sell 10,000 such books, and the equivalent royalty rate is 5%, which is by no means a bad deal. Sell 20,000 and it becomes 2.5%, and so on.

So, the question becomes, can we sell the minimum 5,000-odd books to make this worthwhile?

Under the old D20 days, the answer would have been yes, no problem, can be done on a single title in less than a month. However, I would not be convinced that 4e titles will necessarily sell as fast. On the other hand, there will be less new titles around (because that $5,000 charge will cut down on the number of companies becoming early adopters) than in the D20 days, where there were over 100 potential publishers at one point. And this 'grace' period for the early adopters having the market to themselves is a healthy few months.

There are still concerns, of course.

Can 4e products be produced without damaging the development of existing lines? The easy answer is yes - we have just taken on another full-time writer and, of course, our development of RuneQuest and Traveller is currently solid. We would merely have to decide what proportion of time is taken out for 4e books.

Will D&D 4e be popular? Probably a foregone conclusion. The real question is how popular, but I would be fairly confident there will be enough interest to push things along in a healthy manner.

Even though the number of potential publishers have been cut down to a handful of early adopters (if they all decide to proceed with 4e), will there be a D20 style glut of products? Unlikely, as most of the early adopters have nailed their colours to masts other than D20, and are no more likely to drop their own ranges to service 4e as we would Runequest or Traveller. Even so, a glut is unlikely to be an issue, as even with a flood of product, quality titles always rise to the surface - when the Slayer's Guides and Quintessentials were released (for example), they had a real fight on their hands among competing products, but they were still able to sell tens of thousands of copies (at one point, the Quintessentials were, quite literally, selling one book every thirty seconds!). Other publishers saw similar things. The right product at the right time always wins through.

So, perhaps there will be a lot of books floating around towards the bottom end of this year, all competing for your 4e Pounds, Dollars and Euros, but the market will decide which has a right to be there.

Speaking from a purely commercial point of view, the most interesting question is how many publishers will become early adopters, paying the fee and getting a lead on both development and sales time. A bit of game theory comes into play here, whereby if everyone decides to pitch in, the advantage of joining yourself is diminished. On the other hand, if no one else joins in, perhaps thinking there will be a flood of products that will be tough to compete with, that $5,000 suddenly becomes very, very cheap, as you will have the third party market to yourself!

Is the early adopter deal worth it, given everything above? Commercially speaking. . . yes, depending on how much development time you can devote to the products.

It is going to be fascinating to see what type of products will be the most popular. At the beginning of the D20 craze, it was scenarios, but they quickly fell by the wayside when rules supplements struck (pioneered, to a large degree, by Mongoose and its Slayer's Guides, Encyclopaedia Arcanes and, of course, Quintessentials). Then settings started to take over, though to a much smaller degree than before.

Will it be the same this time around? I am guessing not. I have a feeling many publishers will try to cement themselves early with their own settings and/or concentrate on the biggest sellers of the D20 days - rules supplements. However, I am not sure that is what will happen this time around, and if everyone jumps on the rules supplement bandwagon, those few who concentrate on adventures/scenarios could do extremely well. Keep an eye on Goodman Games and what they do this year. I think they will do very well for themselves. . .

_If_ Mongoose were to pitch in with 4e (and we have not made any firm decisions yet, nor will we until we see the legal paperwork from WotC), what would we do? Grab our 3e catalogue, rehash the rules and release them? That would certainly be the easiest thing to do, requiring little more than a knowledgable developer. However, I don't think it will be that easy. From what we have seen thus far of the rules, you could not take, say, the Quintessential Fighter, and just convert all the rules over to 4e - characters seem to work too differently.

In the State of the Mongoose, I did talk about a setting we have on the back burner at the moment, one that would work very well with D&D rather than RuneQuest, because of the relative power and magic levels of the games. That is a possibility, but see my notes above about which books are likely to do well.

We also have several other ideas in the works, but they all require varying levels of investment in their development. _If_ we proceed with 4e, it will likely be with a mixture of titles, some drawing upon our experience with D20, some from our experience with RuneQuest, and others completely new, as befits a new system.

One way or another, exciting times are ahead for the market!


Gerade dem letzten Satz, kann man nur zustimmen, egal wie man die 4E sieht :D
Planen ist alles, Pläne sind nichts.

TheRaven

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« Antwort #27 am: 11. Januar 2008, 22:18:06 »
Zitat
nor will we until we see the legal paperwork from WotC

Und ich hatte mich schon gewundert ob die Publisher bereits mehr wissen als wir, wenn sie so bereitwillig zahlen. Tja, stellt sich heraus, dass die meisten Publisher offensichtlich etwas impulsiv um nicht zu sagen doof sind.
Die Wissenschaft nötigt uns, den Glauben an einfache Kausalitäten aufzugeben.
- Friedrich

Wormys_Queue

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« Antwort #28 am: 11. Januar 2008, 22:28:38 »
Zitat von: "TheRaven"
Tja, stellt sich heraus, dass die meisten Publisher offensichtlich etwas impulsiv um nicht zu sagen doof sind.


Natürlich wäre es auch möglich, dass die meisten Publisher mehr von ihrem Geschäft verstehen als wir.
Think the rulebook has all the answers? Then let's see that rulebook run a campaign! - Mike Mearls
Wormy's Worlds

Xiam

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« Antwort #29 am: 11. Januar 2008, 22:36:26 »
Die werden mit Sicherheit mehr wissen, als wir, aber versichert haben, nichts durchsickern zu lassen. Keiner gibt US$ 5.000 aus, wenn er nicht wenigstens mal einen Blick auf das werfen darf, was er dafür bekommt.
1984 was not supposed to be an instruction manual.

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